Occam's razor is actually an apt fit for how I came to believe what I do.  The issue is over , "What's observable?".

A Christian will tell you, "Observation is possible."

There is little possibility of having a meaningful discussion on this as Boobz and Smoothseas have completely slid into the, "Bored atheist bait game."

People like myself post on here out of interest in the possibility someone might come to see a reason to investigate further for themselves.  Then there are those who are here just to let people know they think that's stupid and to waste time.

And again, they drag it back to, "religion".

As to your last question Boobz--you're simply following your own ideas and rejecting any reason to do otherwise.  That's actually a near textbook definition of arrogant.

There are those who see a symbiotic relationship between science and faith. So don't be discouraged. I am one of those people.

Join a missionary or teach at Sunday school. You're best to use the same time tested methods the institutions use. You are not going to get many people who learned to think for themselves many years ago to accept ceding their decision making process to others. Better yet be fruitful and multiply. Best to indoctrinate your own kids since they are not only reliant but have a clean slate to fill with the word God everytime they ask why.

Read a dictionary. Arrogance is something very different. You seem to be the one who thinks your "experience" should somehow be more important to others than their own set of life experiences and circumstances. What word does Webster's use to describe that?

 

Same book same religion same god ... no difference. You just want to pick and choose what is only important to you ... as opposed to most Christians who let the RCC do it for them. Unfortunately, the RCC makes Christian policy and we are left dithering over opposites.

Christians say all kinds of strange things just like everyone else does ... why am I supposed to take them to heart (shit … all of them???) though? All you do is harp of some tête-à-tête with god … but you never expound.  Then it is just whining about our not listening to you over stuff you won’t tell us about but expect us to believe because ‘you’ said so (but didn't) … the proven Christian method of closing a debate before it even gets started, hahaha.

 

@Smoothseas  I thought one thing you brought up was actually worth responding to.  I have three children.  I raised all of them to be respectful of my own and other's personal convictions but let them know that they were not "what I was" just because they were my children.  From a young age I explained to them that they would have to examine for themselves and make their own decision about what to believe and that "just wanting to be" didn't make them a Christian--or anything else.  It had to come from a real experience and personal conviction.

Two of my children approached me independently a couple of years apart and told me they firmly believed in God and wanted to know what the next step was for themselves. 

My oldest son had a traumatic experience and for several years completely rejected any concept of God as valid.  I heard all the regurgitated arguments from the internet from him just as from you, saw the same smug "my friends and I know the truth" attitude from him that he picked up from more of his "internet enlightened" friends and I always had one response when he said, "All you Christians are like this or always do that!"

I'd simply look him in the eye and say, "Tell me when I did that to you?".  He would immediately answer, "Well, not you--but all the other ones.  You know what I mean."  When he felt like expounding on his disbelief and would challenge me to respond, I'd give him the same answer each time, "Believe what you think is right--it's your life and on you.  I don't expect you to believe what I believe because you haven't had the experience I've had and couldn't".

I never preached at him or slipped him bible verses and this past year he came home in tears and apologized for how he had acted regarding those times.  He's also concluded there must be a God--despite years of being sure there wasn't and having all the answers--because of his own experience.

My new daughter-in-law was an attempted murder victim at the age of 13 and as she puts it, "Saw no value in anything to do with a made-up God" and had rejected him from that time on firmly--including mocking angrily anyone who talked to her about the topic.  She's lived here a year now and after a month of barely talking with me got into late one night.  She attends church now and simply says, "I've changed my mind."   She just started considering it where she refused before.  I had nothing more to do with it.

You want to argue people into or out of their points of view--or at least firmly dismiss the ones you don't like.  I think people need to make their own minds up and pseudo-intellectual bullying isn't necessary.

So believe what you want--it's your life and on you.  You just haven't had an experience.  You can insist there isn't one--but since you don't know what it is or what it must mean that seems a bit stretched.  How can you know what you don't klnow or understand?

You are better stated in saying , "I reject" as opposed to "I know" when it comes to any possible reality of a God and people's experiences and observations of it because the simple fact is you don't actually know yourself.

There's one big difference between you and I too--you're so sure you are right that you would tell someone something is not true or not worth investigating when you don't even know yourself.  I wouldn't.

If you say something I haven't experienced and can't relate to, I'll happily let you know and ask you to expound.  So far you sound pretty much like every other troll on the net who gets his kicks "pushing buttons".

I'm answering not so much for you because that's a waste of time at present but for others who might come along with real questions.  They're worth the effort.

 

If you think I am trying to push my views on anybody you are sadly mistaken. You are not being bullied and I think you know it. You either have a case of chronic offendedness or you are being insincere. The grievance game does not work in open forums. That game plan has been exposed a long time ago. Your constant insistence that you are somehow being victimized is ridiculous. You have cried wolf over and over. The villagers are now potentially less likely to listen. 

I don't care what you think I should say and how you think I should say it. Maybe you should look at how many times you have claimed to know things before you preach what others should say.  We live in a country that puts freedom of speech in front of many things. Deal with it. There are many things I have seen stated by atheists and theists alike that I tend to disagree with but that is simply one of the costs of freedom. I don't play the grievance game in response because it solves nothing.

The belief in God has nothing to do with like or dislike. I am not an atheist because I dislike the idea or concept of God or because I like or dislike others who believe or don't believe. I am an atheist simply because I am and would be lying to myself and others if I was to claim otherwise. Neither do I doubt that theists believe what they believe. Peoples religious beliefs are based on what they have been exposed to over their lifetimes. It is as simple as that. If you can get that concept through your thick skull then maybe you will realize that nobody is rejecting your "experience" for the sake of rejection.  What is being rejected is your belief that your life experience should mean more to others than their own life experiences.

Some people push buttons for other reasons. It exposes many things about others. When people get their emotional juices flowing they often reveal things that they might not otherwise expose. I do not deny that I am a "button pusher". But my motives are not what you think.

 

 

So in short, you don't know.

Atheism is the absence of belief of dieties. I do not believe in God as a creator or controller of the universe or as a supernatural immortal being. That is why I call myself an atheist. God to me is simply a man made concept. A figment of peoples imagination and/or conscience which each individual defines and uses on his or her own terms in light of their own life experiences. Nobody knows yet everybody knows, because God is as unique to each individual as each individual is as unique from one another.

I certainly know what God is. It is something some individuals use to seek comfort or meaning in life, and sometimes used to gain advantage over others. It is something parents use to teach and/or control their kids, it is something religious institutions use to teach and/or control society, it is something politicians use to buy votes, and something governments use to rule over individuals and achieve political goals.

 

 

 

Funny, how I see Sinperiium offer a very calm explanation of his views... and Smoothseas simply resorts to name calling and defensive retorts.

 

You atheists pride yourselves on your reason, yet you simply can not listen to it... It's tragically humorous.

 

I admit...this did amuse me.

Amusing if you take it out of context from what was actually stated.

The word God obviously exists and has been given to mean various things throughout history. To me it is a 100% man made concept no matter what context is is being used in, and no matter how others decide to slice and dice it. If it amuses you then you simply do not understand what atheist means. You have your own preconceived definition that appears to be quite incorrect. There are many religious folk who admit to being atheists, including Christians. They obviously have some meaning they have put to their personal God yet do not  believe their God is a creator, controller, or immortal being.There are also many who choose not to reveal that they are atheist because of the intolerance found in many societies.

 

 

 

Agree - I just found myself reading Sin's post, your post, and completely skipping Smooth. Not worth my time to even look at. Same for Boobz.

Expound please ... shit or get off the pot. Your silly one line jabs are about as useful as tits on a boar.

Everything seems to be taken out of  context. I am not sure if these religious folk are even capable of reading a whole paragraph and commenting on it. The preferred method seems to be to pick a word or phrase and run that into the ground. The hell with the actual meaning … that is not important … just a word or two … that’s where the “REAL” hidden message is, hahaha..

And somehow we are not listening, hahaha. You have to laugh (cry???) at Christian logic and speaking skills. You guys are doing just fine all on your own ... you do not need Smoothseas or I to help there, hehehe.

 

David, just swap the words around and you will have it correct. How can I understand what I don't know ... in a nutshell.

And yet, this is exactly what you are demanding of us? Is there some reason why that has changed based  on how you treat us here who have not the experience you insist has to come first? Did you reserve this "choice option" just for your own children or what?

Bye David, have a good fantasy.

I've made that very point and the point I'm making that you keep skipping over is that if you "just decide" that "X" or "Y" must not be true and refuse to consider otherwise you'll never be able to form an objective opinion and know anything outside of what you already believe.

You can say, "I don't understand" and "I don't care to" but that isn't any sort of argument for suggesting other people do the same--it's just "you".

Maybe one day you'll have a child or young family member who faces the death of a loved one and they ask, "What will happen to them now?".  You can dodge the issue or explain the process of the shortness of life and go on to "that's all there is".  But if they then ask you, "Does everyone believe that?  Are you absolutely sure?" you're going to have to decide whether to encourage them to look for answers themselves or else direct them to only yours.  What will you do if they decide to look into faith?  Would you talk to them like you have to people here?

The simple question a child will ask is, "How do you know?"

If faced with the same question, I'd tell my child (and have) that not everyone believes as I do but this is my own experience and because of it I do believe.  If they then asked me, "Are you sure?" I could answer, "Yes" without equivocation and without having to sling clever sounding slogans and show them videos from Hawkings, Dawkins and Hitchens.  I could actually show them from my life--not from a philosophical argument.

You guys couldn't have this conversation face to face--it only works when you can hide behind a computer screen and terminate a line of thought or misdirect it at will.  The fact that you're incapable of actually carrying a real conversation here with any seriousness is a real indicator of how serious your own beliefs really aren't.

The only thing I have advocated here is that you consider that other experiences outside of your own could have some validity and be willing to really look at them without an automatic rejection of them.  That's it.

You're not hearing me say, "Have an open mind" all you hear is, "You must be wrong".  I can't help you there.