Musings about the world around me, the world I create in my mind, and the world I am escaping to in a game.

Has it ever occured to anyone that, over the course of history, humans often come to the conclusion that anything that cannot be explained at the moment is automatically considered to be supernatural? For example, the Greeks. They had a god for just about anything that they could not explain with their means of science or technology at the time. How else could they explain the torrent of fire and molten lava that spwes out of a volcano? By claiming that Hephasteus is simply working in his forge of course.

But fast forward to today. And we know that isn't the case. The advent of computers, automobiles, airplanes, etc etc etc, would simply astound the Ancient Greeks. They would consider us gods. They would be unable to speak out of pure awe.

And since science is never ending in the sense that, with each question answered, more questions are formed... we still do not have a logical explanation for God. That being that supposedly judges us from afar, and moves through us all.

Think about it though... what if we just haven't reached the technological threshold to explain it yet?

It could be possible, that "God" is nothing more than a wave that interacts with our matter. Influencing our decisions with maybe electrical impulses or something similar. Religion is making "god" more important than it really is. With the advent of more powerful technology, we may be able to see what it is that moves through us all. More than likely, it is just another force of nature. It justs exists. It is there, always has been. But it is not a being, it is not something to worship... it is just not something we can understand. YET.

Basically, what I am trying to say is, we humans have proven over time that with the advent of better technology we can understand the ways of nature around us. So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is? We just can't comprehend it yet... but we will in time I think. Just like we did with volcanoes, oceans, telephones, airplanes, etc etc etc.

Religion is powerful in many ways no doubt. It helps certain people get through rough times, and to them, it explains the way things are as well giving them a code of ethics that they can follow. But religion is also on a way ticket to being obsolete. If science can bridge the gap between the two, what now?

Now just so everyone knows, I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs, I am merely wondering outloud if the above could be the case. I would also like to hear what other people have to say. Please be open-minded, and rational.

I will explain in better detail some ideas that I have heard as well some of my own if a great dialogue can be established.


Comments (Page 57)
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on Jan 09, 2012

Sinperium; if there were a shred of truth in there it has long since passed recognition.  The RCC has bastardized everything Biblical with the NT in which they replace the Jewish God (Yahweh) with their upstart who then gives them and only them, dominion over all things … sounds just like modern-day politics to me … business as usual. Christianity will not survive if it remains dominated by RCC canon. I don’t see any problems with a personal god, but if someone has to ask a Church how to act human … then they are not very human themselves because they do not understand or trust their own species and seemingly never will. Whatever…

on Jan 09, 2012

Why do these debates always turn into "Atheists vs Christians"?

It's like the agnostics and the rest of the religions are the smart ones, and just make some popcorn and watch. 

on Jan 09, 2012

lulapilgrim
Whether you agree or not, like it or not, or think it's hogwash or hateful on my part, what I said is simply the truth about Atheism in general.

lulapilgrim ...it's comments such as this that WILL see this thread closed.

You cannot/will not condemn another's beliefs, be they religion or, as in this case - atheism.

I trust I have made myself quite clear.

on Jan 09, 2012

MortalKhrist
Why do these debates always turn into "Atheists vs Christians"?

Because it is the 'nature of the beast' that threads on topics such as this will inevitably be hijacked by personal agendum or extremist/fanatical opinion and disintegrate into verbal mayhem only to be abruptly closed down.

on Jan 09, 2012

CHASBO,

I noticed that posts from WinnCustomize have no quote features.

you write:

I'm not an Atheist but there are moral, law abiding Atheist's all over the place. ..... You can do that and live a moral life without believing in God ......

Yes, of course there are moral, law abiding Atheist's out there.

But the larger question is where did they get those morals from? Certainly not from the animals they think they evolved from?  

....................................

from your # 835

you post:

I won't let you throw me under the bus on the abortion issue.

Why think that way?  I took your own comments, put them together and asked a question. 

What if the pregnancy is because of rape or incest? The woman as a victim has no choice?  

Rape and incest are morally vile acts and those who commit them need to be punished to the max.

The woman involved in these crimes need our love and compassion. But yes, to be brutally honest, the woman involved has a choice. That's becasue while the act was brutal and horrible, the baby, the product of the act is an innocent human being. We punish the guilty rapist but why should we kill the innocent baby for the crime of the father?

Doesn't make sense and the murder of an innocent human being to relieve the suffering of another is never justified.

It's far better physically, mentally, and spiritually for the mother to carry the baby to term and give him/her up for adoption. That turns a horrible vile act into a win.win.win situation.


on Jan 09, 2012

 

Quoting lulapilgrim,
reply 833
Whether you agree or not, like it or not, or think it's hogwash or hateful on my part, what I said is simply the truth about Atheism in general.

lulapilgrim ...it's comments such as this that WILL see this thread closed.

You cannot/will not condemn another's beliefs, be they religion or, as in this case - atheism.

I trust I have made myself quite clear.

Just saw this as I posted my last comment.

Jafo,

I can understand not condemning another person personally, but really, I'm not allowed to condemn another's belief system be it religion or atheism? 

Check other's posts...Isn't that exactly what others have been doing, condemning the Catholic Church and Catholicism all along?

Of course it is.

Fret not. This is no longer a site I'd like to contribute my 2 cents worth. This will be my last post.

 

on Jan 09, 2012

You are FREE to debate religion [or it's absence], however universal statements that atheists are immoral is equivalent to statements that all Catholics condone the abuses of children by their Clergy.

Both statements are equally unacceptable.  I trust this specific example makes it clear.

It is a fine line in religious/political [and other confrontationist] topics between debating a view and denouncing a view-holder.

on Jan 10, 2012

lulapilgrim
I'm not allowed to condemn another's belief system be it religion or atheism?

Maybe it is because you have no idea what you are condemning? Atheism means one thing and one thing only. The belief that no God exists. It has nothing to do with some imaginary set of beliefs that you wish to paint a stereotype on others with. The range of beliefs that individual atheists have probably vary as much or more than those of all the religions which ever existed on this planet.

 

on Jan 10, 2012

Smoothseas
Maybe it is because you have no idea what you are condemning? Atheism means one thing and one thing only. The belief that no God exists. It has nothing to do with some imaginary set of beliefs that you wish to paint a stereotype on others with. The range of beliefs that individual atheists have probably vary as much or more than those of all the religions which ever existed on this planet.

Essentially, yes.

That's the point...

on Jan 10, 2012

Well I've held off as long as I can, but I finally must succumb to the alluring topic we have here in this thread...I'll start with the "34 page disclaimer" that what is to be said here may have been said before...and I don't feel like reading 34 pages to find out...

I first would say that in my opinion, religion is not really a choice per se as much as it is the product of life experience...you don't choose to believe in God as much as you are simply convinced one way or the other by your own personal life experiences...

I mean, think about...really think about it...you can't sit yourself down and say "Well, today's gonna be the day I choose between atheism and theism"...you either believe or you don't...your beliefs may change over time, and some can even point to a specific moment (or series of moments) that led them to their belief system today...but it was those moments, those life experiences, that caused you to "buy into" a certain worldview...

That is not to say choice is irrelevant...you can choose, to a degree, what life experiences you are exposed to...additionally, you can make choices or take actions that happen to lead you down a certain path...but in the end, religious beliefs are products of life experience, not the results of a definite decision...an "epiphany" or "moment of clarity" simply is not a choice as much as it is an event you experience...

I am sure many will disagree with this premise, but there's my thought on the matter...now, with that in mind...

MortalKhrist
Why do these debates always turn into "Atheists vs Christians"?

I understand your point is more on why other religions are seemingly disregarded, but that really is more just the demographic of people on these forums (and I'd guess most discussions you/we are exposed to) than anything else...the real debate is between atheists and theists, and it equally concerns all religions (most of which just aren't proportionately represented by the community here/there/anywhere)...

Because religious beliefs (and one's willingness to accept or reject them) are the product of a life's worth of experiences, individuals are not easily swayed....of course this is obvious, we all went into this discussion fully aware that very few people here are going to change or be dissuaded from their beliefs...

But it is more than just "strong beliefs"...both sides are built on fallacious arguments with flawed thinking...it is an irreconcilable debate that can perpetuate itself with circular logic, semantics, and good old stubbornness...before you read too much into that and assume a tirade of flaming will follow, this statement is not meant to be offensive or critical in anyway....

In the end, such flawed thinking is unavoidable because we are human...the human mind inherently uses heuristics, confirmation bias, and defense mechanisms that heavily influence our beliefs...ultimately, neither atheists or theists have a single damn good reason to believe what they believe...really, neither side has a leg to stand on...advocates of each side ultimately have been "convinced" their side is right...there was no proof, merely evidence and a series of experiences vetted through the flawed human mind...and the product is an unshakable human belief system...

That doesn't mean we are wrong to have beliefs, or wrong to try and justify them (whether to ourselves or to others)...furthermore, just because the so-called "reasoning" behind a belief system is fundamentally flawed doesn't mean the belief system cannot possibly be right...there is no true solid, incontrovertible proof for atheists or theists, and eventually both sides will have nothing but "faith" going for them...your ignorant and unfounded beliefs are just as silly as mine are... 

Barring the possibility of posthumous consequences, that someone is a theist or atheist is honestly irrelevant...a person's beliefs only need to serve that one person and their psychological needs, and both view points are quite adequate in satiating our intrinsic desires (in fact, agnosticism or apathy can fulfill those needs just as well)...clearly, what belief systems works best at "convincing" the human mind depends on which human mind we're looking at.... 

For the record, and because I think it's only fair people understand where I stand before progressing to properly criticize me, I strongly believe in God...and, I'll be the first to admit I don't have a single good reason to, I just do...I could point to reasons why I have been led to this belief, but ultimately there are no solid reasons why my belief is right or preferential to any other belief...

That being said, I think there is a big difference between the universally flawed thinking humanity depends on to live happily with itself and some of the thinking that is expressed here in this thread...in these types of discussions, I generally find both sides to be equally ignorant, illogical, intolerant, and shameful...I'm not saying all people who participated here are "problematic" or "antagonistic"...I simply am equally repulsed by hardliners from both sides...what bothers me the most about this type of debate in particular is that both sides commonly denounce the other side for being "intolerant", "ignorant", or "illogical"...in truth, I find both sides to be equally bad, going far and above the inherent bias and poor logic all human minds are plagued with...truly, these debates go to a whole new level of.....of, well, silliness...

 

on Jan 10, 2012

Seleuceia
I find both sides to be equally bad, going far and above the inherent bias and poor logic all human minds are plagued with...truly, these debates go to a whole new level of.....of, well, silliness...

Yep...which is why the clever people of this world AVOID these topics/threads with a PASSION ....

on Jan 10, 2012

And yet, here we are. 

on Jan 10, 2012


Yep...which is why the clever people of this world AVOID these topics/threads with a PASSION ....

And yet they are so much fun!!!!  The "high road" is just boring....so I say throw yourself into the fray!

on Jan 10, 2012

Seleuceia
religion is not really a choice per se as much as it is the product of life experience

It is just as much a choice as most things are. Even the Bible says that. People may be born into a certain religion however we all have the choice at some point in our lives to decide whether to put our faith in those that taught that religion or to put our faith elsewhere and move on to some other religion or no religion at all. Your life experiences are the results of choices you make. You may have very little control as a child but I assure you the choices we have as adults are boundless and heavily influence what one's life experiences will be.

on Jan 10, 2012

Smoothseas
People may be born into a certain religion however we all have the choice at some point in our lives to decide whether to put our faith in those that taught that religion or to put our faith elsewhere and move on to some other religion or no religion at all.

You are not understanding what I am saying, but that is okay...my point has nothing to do with what religion you are brought up and is not by any means comparable to "people are the product of the environment"...

Seleuceia
you can choose, to a degree, what life experiences you are exposed to...additionally, you can make choices or take actions that happen to lead you down a certain path

This is exactly what I said (in the post you are quoting)...now let's look at what you have to say...

Smoothseas
Your life experiences are the results of choices you make. You may have very little control as a child but I assure you the choices we have as adults are boundless and heavily influence what one's life experiences will be.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing a meaningful difference between the two...I don't know if you just read only that one sentence of my post but I clearly indicated choice can be relevant to one's belief system...

With that said...

Smoothseas
It is just as much a choice as most things are.

A commonly used argument against God is the existence of pain and suffering...logically, there are only two possibilities: either God willing allows suffering, or God does not exist.  Which type of universe would you rather live in?  One where the God allows suffering, or one without a God?  Ultimately, we must "pick" which belief we are most comfortable living with...at this point, one's "decision" is based upon feeling...how do you feel about a God who allows suffering vs. how you feel about a universe with no God?

And it is here where we no longer are making the same type of "choice" we do with other things in our life...you cannot control how something makes you feel...though that statement is supported by psychological research, I think it is also something we can all relate to...some things simply make you angry, or happy, or sad...you don't choose how you feel, you simply don't...you can choose how you react, and previous life experiences can condition certain feelings to arise, but it is not a choice...

Stealing is a choice, but feeling guilty (or not) afterwards is not a choice, it simply happens...of course, one who chooses to steal frequently will have less feelings of guilt as subsequent actions or exposals tend to desensitize us to consequent feelings....it is in this way that a choice (choosing to steal) leads us to have certain feelings (of which we do not have direct control over) that influence our belief system (is stealing right or wrong?)...

Smoothseas
Even the Bible says that.

I'd be careful with that...even in the world of Christendom where the bible is sometimes acceptable evidence, that statement is extremely contentious...predestination (and all the varying forms of it) has historically been a contention point for the various sects of Christianity, with large parts of Christendom being on both sides of the issue...

Since belief in God is not uniquely Christian, I'm wary of using the Bible (or any religious text) as "evidence" or "support" when discussing just one's belief in God (a belief that can be independent of religion)...that being said, predestination is accepted to varying degrees in other religions as well (Islam being a prime example)...though for any given religion one opinion may represent a majority, there is nothing close to a consensus on the issue of predestination and certainly not within Christianity...

So while you (and perhaps your respective church/sect/community) may believe in choice and free will, the same thing cannot be said about Christianity or religion as a whole...

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