Thanks Sinperium. Excellent answer. H-o-w-e-v-e-r, evidently not to BT! 

 

 

The Catholic Church Founder was Jesus. He established His Church upon the Apostles. So when did the Apostles know that Jesus  was God?

Who was Christ? Christ was the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, existing in the human nature which was born of the Virgin Mary, yet retaining ever His Divine nature. He is therefore GOd and man at one and the same time. As man He could die for His fellow human beings; as God He was able to expiate the insult offered to the DIvine Majesty and thus restore to men the possibility of eternal happiness.  

Christ means the Messias promised by God to appear on earth who did appear in human form through the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As man, Christ existed on earth for 33 years. But as a Divine being in His nature as God, He existed all of eternity.  

So, God first knew it and from all eternity. He promulagated the doctrine from the very beginning of the human race when He promised Adam and Eve a Redeemer would come and continuously through the prophets of the Old Testament of which the Apostles, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, were all well familiar with.

The Blessed Virgin Mary knew it for God had revealed that the Holy Ghost would overshadow her and "The HOLY" which shall be born shall be the Son of God. 

Christ taught it clearly and claimed He was God and confirmed that by miracles. Christ answered your question put to Him by the Jews who doubted He was God. Jesus said to them that before Abraham came to be I AM. They understood and took up stones to cast at Him. 

Simon Peter knew Christ to be the Son of God in the unique unprecedented Divine sense of equality with God the Father, having all the power there is in Heaven and on earth. So, they all knew it but for some it was much more clear after the Crucifixion and so much more so after Christ's Resurrection.

Who would you say that Jesus is? That Jesus Christ is God was first told by Christ Himself to His Apostles and they and their successors in the Catholic Church has been teaching this truth ever since 33AD and will continue until the end of the world. 

Lula (#825); play your word games all you want, but a dead child to me anyway represents an aborted fetus (human). when your God takes care of business, you call it a miscarriage how quaint is that ... so I was right ... it is ok for you as long as we ourselves aren’t involved. Righteous infanticide just like in the 'good' book is ok as long as Mr. Benign is at the helm. If a miscarriage is not caused by man ... then who or what is the cause. Typical Catholic logic ... why is it that your God is in charge of 'everything' else, go figure.

Lula, this forum is not a 'Sunday School' class for you to practice your illogical approach to life.  If you cannot say much in your own words, well I don't think many appreciate your quoting any Catholic Tom, Dick or Harry for their words of wisdom instead. If you cannot support your arguments without this Book in hand ... then you are just supporting someone else’s opinions and don't have any of your own (personal). In other words ... you are a complete fake relying on everyone else's opinions to give you a 'righteous' cause. Or are you just stricken 'lulu' by the ridiculous nature of Biblical lore that you cannot justify yourself without the help of others.

Personally, I don't care what your archaic Book or Bishop Pedophiles have to say ... I am not trying to have a discussion with a Book is all.

Lula (#826); nice and vague there, how typical. I am not interested in your folk lore, I am trying to find out when you Catholics knew guys Jesus was purported to be God in the flesh? Simple question and it doesn't require a false rendition of supposed past events. Seemingly you guys knew from birth so how does a known God walking this Earth HIDE from the people he professes to love … and why? Hell, you don’t even know the year He was supposed to have been born. Nazareth is another good subject to study … like where was it, hahaha. No wonder nobody locally know of all those miracles because they didn’t know where he was hiding. What day in history did this crucifixion take place. If Mary knew of the immortality of her son and his birthday and death day … how come you guys don’t know? Probably has little to do with the positions women held in societies at the time … where are the ‘femanazis’ when you need them, hahaha? See, it isn't difficult to use your own words and mind for a change now is it?

The question again: “What do you know of the personal life of your Jesus?”, no mumbo-jumbo necessary here. Lula, If Jesus told his Apostles what was what ... then why didn't they convey some of this in their Gospels which they of course didn't write themselves, go figure. No wonder you need a Church to tell you what it all means hahaha. You base everything in your life on the life of this man ... and you know absolutely nothing personal about him. To me this is impossible ... but it doesn't even faze the zealots.

PS: Lula, if you want to peruse this God thing alone (no science), please come to my article and take your best shot at  "God does not exist". I am not going to pester this thread by dissecting your flawed logic and misplaced loyalties. Man up Girl, hehehe.

 

No word games from me. We agree you are right that an unborn baby dies every time there is a miscarriage or an abortion. But we honestly can't blend the two as though they are interchangeable.

I simply made a reasoned observance between miscarriage and abortion. It all comes down to the moral value of the act...and in that regard a miscarriage is not equivalent to procured abortion. 

A miscarriage happens naturally usually because a problem in the process of development exists, while an abortion is anything but natural.

 

 

 

Who controls nature??? ... and do not use words like 'usually' when dealing with your one God.

I just discuss and answer questions the best I can.

You have not pronounced anything new.

We all know the Atheist's viewpoint that nothing is sacred, not God, not human life and their hatred of the Church and His holy religion.

I too shall not belabor this particular part of the JU discussion any longer except to extend to all this quote:

"Catholic doctrine tells us that the primary duty of charity does not lie in the toleration of false ideas, however sincere they may be, nor in the theoretical or practical indifference towards the errors and vices in which we see our brethren plunged... Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their false ideas, however sincere they might have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them." Pope St.Pius X, "Our Apostolic Mandate", August 25, 1910.

 

The slavery of Atheism or true freedom in Christ? The choice is ours.

What hogwash! I'm not an Atheist but there are moral, law abiding Atheist's all over the place. To be a moral person means to conform to the rules of virtuous conduct. You can do that and live a moral life without believing in God or hating the Church. Saying those sort of things as you said is hateful.

About the freedom in Christ thing: Tell the American Indians about that. Really worked for them didn't it?

Lula, I haven't pronounced anything ... I just asked a bunch of questions which you handily dismissed ... as usual. This seems to answer all the questions I had though. I think Stalin, Hitler and many other historical notables seem to have had the same philosophy ... our way or death. This sounds apt for ‘the freedom fighters in the RCC’ to me is all, hahaha. Freedom of choice my aching arse.

Whether you agree or not, like it or not, or think it's hogwash or hateful on my part, what I said is simply the truth about Atheism in general. 

Regarding abortion, CHASBO writes:

In your realm of thinking, is the intentional and deliberate act of killing an unborn baby in the womb virtuous conduct? What is the moral value of the act of abortion?

Ha, go back and read... you pronounced plenty...just as you are doing here again.

Sorry though it is common knowledge that both Stalin and Hitler had great contempt for the Church and her moral teachings. If they had the same philosophy as Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, then the atheist's slaughter of human life from 1917 to 2007 that numbered roughly 148 million people would never have happened.

 The callousness of atheist states towards human life is summed up in Vox Day's book, The Irrational Atheist in a chapter entitled "The Red Hand of Atheism". 

 

What if the pregnancy is because of rape or incest? The woman as a victim has no choice? 

I won't let you throw me under the bus on the abortion issue.

Here's the thing. What you said about Atheists is wrong. You can't decide what a person believes because you go to Church and follow the Catholic faith. Who gives a rats ass what you believe? This is a free country. I don't give a shit what you think. I don't tell you what to believe and you have no right to tell me or anybody else what to believe. That's the way it is and if you don't like it go to a place where they force a person to follow your belief system. I guess you'll be happy then.

HAVE A NICE DAY!

You will not convince her that anything outside the RCC is good, least of all the opinion of an atheist (I know hahaha). This is not a free country by far ... maybe “free'er” than many but... I speak of Christianity but my arguments are in opposition to all religions ... there are just so many??? The Koran is much more in line with the real world (evolution) because when they were compiling their silly Book, they didn't see the need to rewrite our complete past. Don’t get angry … take the fight home but on your terms.

Look familiar, hahaha ... I knew this wouldn't last long but the very next quote ... got to love this nonsense. You cannot possibly be this naïve that you have to ask this over and over again. AFAIK, our realms of thinking are the same (Anatomy 1.01) but our information sources differ, our modus operandi differs and our objectives differ. Your goal is the subjugation of everything and everyone on the planet (and beyond, hehehe) because your God told you to … my goal is to make sure your goal never ever gets applied to me. God was never ever fully appreciated from His angelic creations to His Earthly creations up to me … so what’s new Doc? The perfect ‘Creator’ for sure … ever seen a duck billed platypus???

If you insist on talking about morals HERE (???) then let’s start with the OT, then the NT and then through Catholic dogma and compare your self-righteous absolute morality to say those of a little old atheist ... mine.

 

Jafo, let me know when enough is enough ok.

 

Getting back to the baptism thing. I asked my sister about baptism. This is what she had to say about it:

 

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[d] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Jesus told the one criminal that he would be with Him in Paradise (Heaven) and that criminal had not been baptized... he was crucified right then and there with Jesus.

We know for a fact that that criminal is in Heaven because Jesus said so. He was NEVER baptized! Baptism is something that we are instructed to do after salvation as a public profession of our faith. Baptism alone does not save us. If that were true, then all babies that have been baptized and never TRULY believe in Jesus and what He did for us and give their life to him, would go to Heaven... that is NOT AT ALL what the Word of God (Bible) says.

 

She also said to look at these verses:

John 3:16
John 3:36
John 20:31

She did say though, that claiming that Jesus as the Son of God "does not cut it." She pointed out James 2:19.

Mortalkhrist,

Regarding our last few posts....

We are definitely getting strictly into religion, something the other participants may not be interested in.

So on Baptism, etc. I just opened a new blog and responded there.

 

 

https://forums.joeuser.com/414999/page/1/#3052072

 

Religion is a hot poker in the mind of humanity with its indifference to the facts of life as we know them today. Our sciences would be as remiss as the religious zealots if we didn’t reevaluate our findings and beliefs with the invention/improvement of our technology and our improved knowledge. What in the Bible says we are supposed to be idiots, that we are useful only for kneeling down, praying to their jealous (???) God, donating much to the church coffers, and fantasizing over the bliss of sitting there all goo-goo eyed for eternity? I cannot imagine this existence on Earth and have no desire to experience this fiction for ‘eternity’. If the angels couldn’t tolerate the bliss in their short stay there (< infinity I suppose) … what chance does an inadequate evil human being have of surviving such an experience? How typical and self-serving; “I belong to the RCC and we can do better than the angels, Adam and Eve and all the rest of humanity … because God told me so”, hahaha. It is amazing the extent people will go to try and defy the grave hehehe.

On the other hand--despite all the red herrings, distortions and human interference--what if there is a core of truth in there.  Wouldn't you want to know?