This kind of suffering is difficult to understand. Deeply sensitive to it people like you have cried out that there is no God. But that does not better things for they have their suffering just the same and merely forfeit the one source of consolation.

Such a doubt is not reasonable. Two things are certain. There is a God and pain and suffering are realities. It is foolish to abandon belief in God becasue we have difficulty in reconciling them. 

We must also remember that our lives are not confined to this world and then nothing afterwards. We are physical in body but spiritual in our eternal soul. There is a continuance of existence in eternity where all will be rectified. 

God permitted the suffering only because He is Good and powerful enough to draw from it a benefit greater than the harm it effected.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God? - Epicurus

This has all be debated before...LONG before this thread.  I'm in the crowd that thinks like Epicurus. 

The Apocalypse 21:27, "There shall not enter into it (Heaven), anything defiled, or that worketh abomination, or maketh a lie, ..."

Christ came to save not merely those sinners of His day, but to extend forgiveness to all throughout all time to the end of the world. 

For the non-Catholic who knows he has sinned can ask with perfect contrition, with a positive detestation of that sin, becasue it is an offense to ALmighty God, to be forgiven for his transgressions. Christ will accept a contrite and humble heart and forgive the sinner his sin. 

Now Catholics believe it was the infinite mercy of Jesus that caused Him to make salvation possible by establishing a tribunal of penance.

Christ gave to His "ministers of reconciliation" (bishops and priests) the power to forgive repentant sinners...

"For as the Father has sent Me, I also send you--whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." St.John 20:20-23.

After the pentitent has confessed his sins to the priest, the priest gives absolution in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, the penitent enters a state of spiritual freedom from the guilt of sin upon his soul.

That's how one gets to be completely free of sin.

If god is omnipotent could he make a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".

"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing/"

Epicurus' "Is, then" thing doesn't hold water. Sorry about that!

The problem is with the first sentence.

Almighty God is not willing to prevent evil whether it be in the form of suffering, or moral evil which is sin, an offense against Him.

What the crowd that thinks like Epicurus doesn't understand is that God is All-Loving, All powerful and He does permit evil.

Because God is Love, He asks the freely given love of man and not a compelled love. Becasue God is Just, He will not deprive man of free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of God for even His power does not extend to contradictory things.

Man cannot be free to love and serve God, without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him. We cannot have it both ways. Even God if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness, He takes away freedom.  If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it.

It is man's dignity that he is the master of his own destiny instead of having to develop just like a tree which necessarily obeys natural law.

Men, as a matter of fact, misused their freedom, and sin (evil) and brutality resulted. But it was impossible to give man the gift of freedom and the dignity of being master of his own destiny without risking the permission of such failures.

I would never kill my own children...but I can.  Does that make me less or more?

Now we have problems communicating with each other again.  There is no proof that "free will" exists.  There is nothing rational about the concept of free will.  The idea of free will presumes that beings are capable of making decisions that are contra-causal.  We aren't supernatural--we are natural, part of nature and that means that we can only make choices and decisions based on our chemistry, our history, and our environment. 

Even if, for the sake of argument, I grant that there is such a thing as free will, what sort of a loving God would force free will onto man that would result in the eternal torture of that man?  What good is "freedom" if it results in suffering? 

Got to agree with you.

Well there are lots of paths (religions) out there that's for sure. How do we know we are on the right one ..is that your question?

God not only appoints the destination but also the road by which we must travel. Read St.Matt. 16:18-20 and you'll find that Christ established a Church (not thousands of churches), upon St.Peter, who is the CC's first pope.The CC declares hers to be the only right road. Other churches dispute that and maintain their religion, any religion, no religion or irreligion will do. This is where studying the evidence comes in.

Again, it is for God to say by what road we will come to Him, and not for man to tell God to be content with whatever road man chooses.

Catholics believe that God has revealed a religion and people are obliged to accept that religion and no other. They are no longer entitled to following their own beliefs whatever they may be once God has dictated what they are to believe.

Catholicism teaches that some paths do not lead to God and CHrist Himself distinguished between 2 roads declaring the way leading to life to be narrow and restricted while the way leading to destruction is broad and pleasant to those bent on self satisfaction.

Have you ever considered that if such a Being exists it might know somethings you don't that did justify it?

Watch the original movie The Dead Zone some time. There's a scene where the lead character forces his way into a woman's house and violently drags her out of her house by force while she is kicking and screaming.

She was convinced he was going to rape and kill her and wanted to stay inside her home where she was safe. What he knew and she didn't was that a large tree was about to fall on it and kill her.

When religious people hear fact they ignore it, preferring to quote 'faith' and other such non factual references. That is why all these discussions are pointless.

Never, in the entire history of the internet, has one of these discussions ever accomplished anything.

You people need new hobbies.

Hey now, that's a very broad claim. Not everyone thinks like a Catholic (or, more broadly, an incompatibilist).

No, and Yes...

or Yes and Yes....

either way you get my drift....

This is such a polarizing thread, the decision to include this thread in the WC forums was asinine.

Most religious people are good people. I thinks it's important to point that out. Whether I believe in god or not is immaterial, what I don't believe in is religion.

Religion has told us that the world was flat, the cosmos revolved around Earth, persecuted those of science, murdered mid-wives as witches, have cause more deaths than all wars combined and might as well mention abuse of its members. Archaic religious teachings have contributed to over population and the starving of people all over the world. One can even partly blame our countries dilemma with illegal immigration to religion. Too many people not enough resources.

If your god is love, goodness and tolerance then those that feel they have a moral right to interfere with a woman's right to an abortion or birth control, are against gays or that their religion is the only religion then guess who's work you're really doing.