Nice post.

After playing more games, I still run into the same problem. It doesn't matter what DG I use. I just fully think that Spits range is just too far. Spit wouldnt be so bad if it didn't sap your health as fast it does... it also has a relatively low cooldown... combine that would Ubs natural speed advantage... spit (from quite a long distance).. then run... wait for cooldown... catch up with DG.. and then spit again.... is just brutal. If I get caught by UB I usually have to run back to base. And by then, they've already estabilished the map, controlled the flags/creeps, and gianed exp whether they were able to kill me or not. Frustrating... and atm I still think it is just too overpowered. Just so you know, I wouldn't care if it happened in only a few games. But every game I play? Screw that. It's annoying and not very fun to fight the same DG in pantheon everytime and beaten by the same tactic everytime no matter what me or my teammate do.

I'm having the same issue at the moment.  Between a group of friends there is one player I sometimes compete with that has just suddenly worked out how to use UB (I told him ).  For sake of playing the game as it should, and Pantheon practice I am playing Light side against him.  But my usual love, Regulus, is just completely useless vs. UB.

Now I'm not saying Regulus at level 10 can't beat an UB at level 10, the issue is at the start of the game he is going to do better than me, I feel there is nothing I can do.  He spits and runs, so now unless I bought pots right off the bat I'm extremely vulnerable 7 seconds later when his spit is off CD again.  So even if I have a pot I get 750 hp back.  Now assuming I'm not even being hit by the other DG, the UB player comes back to me and spits and runs again.  So now I'm low again, he just runs up and starts melee, my dps doesn't compete with his melee dps when I'm such low hp, I have to run/port back to base.

The UB player will always get the early game advantage against me and an UB that is higher level than you is impossible to deal with.  Not to mention when he is playing with other people it only takes someone with half a brain who knows how to intercept someone running from UB for an easy kill.  The problem with the spit and run, is UB is doing one of the highest damage attacks in game and taking close to 0 damage.

So I've been trying different light side DGs to try to find a nice counter, and in a 2v2 situation I just can't counter this early game spit and run tactic.  There must be some beta players out there who have got this figured out?

I have another thread on this (sorry), but I had to comment on this "defence" of the UB:

Bullshit. I can't even dent him with Regulus.

Well, that kills Regulus early on.

Great. So, I can take on any other demigod, but if I see an UB, I should run? That doesn't really make the case for a balanced game.

Ok, so say I didn't run even though I saw the UB, but then get spit on. So NOW I should run still before I even get close to him because of the range of spit, and even waste money on an item.

Great, so early in the game, you want me to run from the UB, so that later in the game he is even more invincible.

Sorry, but this is really, really broken, imo. It means that the UB can roam freely early in the game and get the experience and gold flags, and then later in the game, you STILL can't do anything because he's gained an even greater advantage.

And people complain about this Erebus guy? At least his overpowered bite is close range (though with charm combo it isn't), and the bat swarm means he's pussying out.

Edit: Never mind, didn't read other replies. Delete, please.

two spits early is only 800 damage and I guarantee that that isn't enough to kill a regulus. do the math and you'll see that the actual dps of spit isn't very good until the last upgrade.  it's the range and annoyance that is ticking people off.

I'd rather get hit by 1500 over 10 seconds than 1050 in one blast from TB.  Not to mention that in the 10 seconds spit takes to do 1500 I'll likely take two 1050's from TB.

When I play UB I have a lot of trouble with Oak, because shield completely negates an important/finishing spit if Oak uses it at the right time not to mention how much his melee damage hurts if built right.

I also have soo much trouble with tower Rooks, because I can spit and spit harassing him but if I chase him through those damn towers he's gonna heal off one or stun me and I'll be stuck in the middle of 4 towers which really hurts and is often fatal except for at the very end-game. Not to mention there's no chance of pushing into/taking down anymore than one tower with anything other than spit if there's another enemy DG anywhere near them.

But both of these can be overcome if there's someone on the other team who's stupid enough to run in close range without full health offering themselves up for a spit, foul grasp then melee for some free gold, which happens way too often.

I am typically/always QoT. And I've single handedly gone up against 2 tower rooks and repelled them early on. One was a bad player, one was ok. But really, how do you screw up planting towers and sitting back? But in any case, I agree. Rook has the ability to push back generals, he's the only assassin. And generals can always push back assassins early game.

The reason why I think assassins are entirely worthless, save Regulas, is because if an assassin can't get kills early on, they are completely out of the game. If a team denies an assassin their kills, then everyone is sitting with the same pool of gold. One side isn't going to have more then the other. So given that, good players will buy siege demolishers and healers to slant the game into their favor. Then once they have pulled ahead in war score, they will continue to slant the game by upgrading to catapults and extra damage/armor for creeps. And when that has happened, the assassin is basically out of the game for good. Assassin's have nothing that can compete with general's minions. Minions require multiple aoe's and lots of mana to kill. Then you have to deal with the general themselves. Assassins have to do nothing but buy expensive items that they can only get by getting kills. So by denying them kills, again, they are taken out of the game. Or they ignore their citadel and lose the game because they are too selfish with their gold.

And i say all but Regulas because of this: Generals have a hard time finishing off players. Bad players will die, but the better players will run off and heal, come back and harass some more. So how Regulas fits in is he provides a way to finish off enemies with his snipe ability. It's the one assassin i'd ever accept on my team.

Happy Number 9?

Just to sum up quickly, anyone who thinks Spit is overpowered has never played against a good General who actually modified their playstyle ever so slightly to stop it.

Oak's Shield removes it, Sedna's Heal removes it, Erebus's Mist removes it, and Queen's Shield reduces it to around zero damage.

And there is a favor item which removes Venom Spit as well.

If anything, I think Venom Spit should be looked at in terms of reducing damage overall, but making it do more of it upfront, precisely because of the above factors.

To be fair, I think that setting up what I call an effective "tower garden" is a lot harder than it seems for reasons I don't completely understand. I'm a pretty good player with my main DG (Regulus), and I thought that using Rook's ToL would be a cinch. However, I think the real secret is that you have to basically have no weak points where an enemy will get hit by only one ToL: every point of approach has to be covered by two or more ToLs. In this way, while an enemy is attacking one, he'll be getting hit by other ones, and will have to retreat early, at best only taking a single one down.

Anyway, I'll add this about Regulus: his strength is affecting combat far from where is physically is located on the map.

That's to say: he isn't only effective because of Snipe; he's also extremely effective because of Mines. I don't think I've seen many or any Regulus players mine as effectively as I have, which is a good thing since they can be an absolute pain. Observe where most frequently the paths of retreat and advancement are by the enemy DGs, put mines there, and wait for "scyldSCHEFING killed x Demigod" or "...assisted by scyldSCHEFING." It's delicious.

But don't underestimate Rook's ToL. They can be brutal if they are set up properly, and with support from TB, Regulus, or a general, they can be a major pain.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that UB is actually a pathetic DG, and as players get better, I bet his popularity will wane as people realize that when confronted with proper support, the most he can do is spit and run, or strike opportunistically when another assasin is alone.

I'm also starting to believe that, as the assasin archetype stands now, the whole concept of a melee assasin is a flawed one, and that is why UB's spit is his one and only saving grace...

UB is easy to handle as Sedna unless he's being fed by others. 

Really? i mean really. Assassin's are kinda built for doing heavy damage while the general's are set up to help their partners. The generals are pretty good for new players that are coming into the games while the assassins take abit of skill to use (like the rook). I play the UB time to time, it one my favorits. I get very in your face with him and i have, while being double team, push two generals back into retreating (as long one not QoT). Really it does come down to skill and useage of the character. I have battle Rook's and though "Geez that was easy" yet in another game i go "God i hate fighting that Demigod".

Also remember something about the spit... it a damage over time, not a pure one shot like Fireball or that sniper shot. It gives you time to drink a potion, teleport to safety, run behind your base (If your close), ect. This is why the damage is so high, while it ticking down... you also have health Regen which if it very high, could reduce the damage by 1/4 or more.

I played a game with sedna vs UB, the UB was pushing me back untill midgame and i proceded to rape him. Then late game he had better items and owned me again.

Ive had decent games vs erebus when im oak, just sheild at the right time and have him waste his bite. Its pretty much over for him if hes out of mana or if your alot faster.

No love for TB-Ice against UB?  UB's primary advantages speed and the dreaded spit / run.  TB-Ice handles it nicely with a speed debuff and attack debuff.  (it's just the rest of the game TB-Ice stuggles with)

Also I realize this thread is a look at the dark forces primary players being UB but noticed a tangent and have played quite a few games against him.  Anyone remember the early threads about the unstoppable QoT?

See, thing is...in the early part of the game, I can't handle a Tower spamming rook. Sure, I can Spit on him...but he has popped 2 towers by the time he sees me, and to spit on him I need to get in range of them. So I spit...his towers start zapping me, he hits me once or twice and we're both hurt, but *I* am worse off.

I can't handle a Shield-using Oak, either. We see each other...move towards each other...and either I Spit just as he hits his Shield (my Spit is negated), or Spit lands and he then Shields (Spit is again negated). We trade blows, neither of us is really getting anywhere...and it's another stalemate.

A lot of Demigods give me a problem early on. That's why I don't look to kill them right out of the gate. I just try and *drive them off*. I'm not killing anyone 1 on 1 early game with just 2 Spits. It doesn't do that much damage. I move in, hit, do some damage, and then move off to look for a Creep wave to feed on, or a flag to capture, or an injured DG that one of me partners has hit and weakened.

Don't think that you've failed because you've taken damage but haven't killed me. Odds are I am low on health, out of mana, and scrambling to get somewhere where a ranged DG like TB or Regulus won't kill me. That's sort of the point; deny me my XP from flags, Creeps, and kills. Worry about outright killing me later, when you have gotten the XP you've denied me.  

I just started playing UB the other day because I get pissed that Regulus has a ranged ability to hit me from the other side of the map. I think the damage is adaquate. In fact, I don't have a problem with the ability other than he can cap a flag half across the map AND hit me just enough to kill me while I'm finishing off his partner at the same time.

But that's just me ranting. So I picked up UB because I heard that Reg. players seem to hate him. After playing two matches, I realized how much fun it was to just outrun Regulus' mine ability before they arm, spit on him, then wind back. It makes me smile inside.

But, I played him again later in a 2v2 match. One side had 2 UB's and the other had 2 Rooks. It was a Fort battle. We started off okay, but the two Rooks started stacking Def. + HP gear and it came to the point that I couldn't kill them no matter how much spit + mele damage I could do. They then got a 3-5 level advantage and slowly finished us off. Even 2 v 1 we couldn't kill them since they would just leach a tower and keep going. And damn those towers they just love to throw up!

So, point in case, it's not impossible to kill a UB. Even with Spit maxed, you can survive with the right play style. Thank goodness I played QoT's later and just whipped the floor against a few Rooks.

--Xetoris