Science and God (One and the same?)

Published on April 11, 2009 By Gh0st_Note- In Everything Else

Has it ever occured to anyone that, over the course of history, humans often come to the conclusion that anything that cannot be explained at the moment is automatically considered to be supernatural? For example, the Greeks. They had a god for just about anything that they could not explain with their means of science or technology at the time. How else could they explain the torrent of fire and molten lava that spwes out of a volcano? By claiming that Hephasteus is simply working in his forge of course.

But fast forward to today. And we know that isn't the case. The advent of computers, automobiles, airplanes, etc etc etc, would simply astound the Ancient Greeks. They would consider us gods. They would be unable to speak out of pure awe.

And since science is never ending in the sense that, with each question answered, more questions are formed... we still do not have a logical explanation for God. That being that supposedly judges us from afar, and moves through us all.

Think about it though... what if we just haven't reached the technological threshold to explain it yet?

It could be possible, that "God" is nothing more than a wave that interacts with our matter. Influencing our decisions with maybe electrical impulses or something similar. Religion is making "god" more important than it really is. With the advent of more powerful technology, we may be able to see what it is that moves through us all. More than likely, it is just another force of nature. It justs exists. It is there, always has been. But it is not a being, it is not something to worship... it is just not something we can understand. YET.

Basically, what I am trying to say is, we humans have proven over time that with the advent of better technology we can understand the ways of nature around us. So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is? We just can't comprehend it yet... but we will in time I think. Just like we did with volcanoes, oceans, telephones, airplanes, etc etc etc.

Religion is powerful in many ways no doubt. It helps certain people get through rough times, and to them, it explains the way things are as well giving them a code of ethics that they can follow. But religion is also on a way ticket to being obsolete. If science can bridge the gap between the two, what now?

Now just so everyone knows, I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs, I am merely wondering outloud if the above could be the case. I would also like to hear what other people have to say. Please be open-minded, and rational.

I will explain in better detail some ideas that I have heard as well some of my own if a great dialogue can be established.

Comments (Page 35)

511

lulapilgrim

on Dec 12, 2011

But when it comes to people of any faith, or non-faith, I am much more interested in how they treat other people.

How people treat each other comes down to one's morality. How one views right and wrong. How one's conscience is formed concerning good and evil (moral evil is sin).

Has to be because no man is an island; We all inter-relate in one way or another according to a common, nartural or moral law.

I want to know if they seek power over others with whom they disagree. I want to know how much they are going to try to legislate, 'influence,' etc., society in an attempt to get others to agree with them, or comply with their 'views' on 'appropriate behavor.

So, yes we do legislate morality for all laws have someone's morality behind them.

"we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."

Here, it's plain to see the Founders believed that there was a higher authority, the Creator, to whom they could appeal to establish objective moral grounds in making laws.

The declaration didn't begin "we hold these opinions..." rather, they believed the Creator God's moral law was the ultimate standard of right and wrong. They based the law of the land (and thus all those laws in states and local governments must be in harmony) and its national morality on Almighty God.

512

RiddleKing

on Dec 12, 2011

lulapilgrim

reply 511

As far as legislating laws, as a nation, the USA began with our Founders and framers who observed from the moral or natural law that the "self-evident" unalienable rights of all people should be protected.

"we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."

Here, it's plain to see the Founders believed that there was a higher authority, the Creator, to whom they could appeal to establish objective moral grounds in making laws.

The declaration didn't begin "we hold these opinions..." rather, they believed the Creator God's moral law was the ultimate standard of right and wrong. They based the law of the land (and thus all those laws in states and local governments must be in harmony) and its national morality on Almighty God.

Killing the red indians and stealing their lands, prejudice against the jews and enslaving black people for decades. Very revolutionary. Your a fraud designated Noob! Founding fathers what? Just admit your founding fathers sucked and run along. we are a broken people. all of us

513

Philocthetes

on Dec 12, 2011

lulapilgrim

reply 500

... Yes, I quoted you referring to the subject of your quote ..."the religious spammer". ...

It still looks like a forum bug or a confusing misrepresentation.

Your quote text in reply 468 is from one of Jafo's replies, but you attribute it to one of my replies. I didn't type those words, and you didn't quote the words that I did type.

If the forum didn't do it with a code fart, why did you choose to put Jafo's words under my name?

514

lulapilgrim

on Dec 12, 2011

Quote Blacklist 475 Sorael on Dec 11, 2011 science is the search for God by people who refuse to believe that human's aren't the highest form of existance.

Science deals with truths regarding natural things, not to the Maker of them, who being God, belongs intellectually to the sphere of theology as a science.

Brainsucker posts:

4. You deny the existence of God because you never see him / her. Well, me either. I never see him / her, nor know if he is really-really exist. No one has a video record / tape record or other things that can prove about the existence of God. That's why, the TS said that we can't explain God with any logical explanation.

5. so what is logic? is it 1/0? or true / wrong, or what? We can't explain about God with any logical explanation. so what logic we are using in here? Ok, let say that we don't have any evidence that God is really-really exist. But what about atom, or molecule? or Mitochondria? or bacteria? Did we know that bacteria exist before we invented microscope? No? Ok.... And do you have any research to deny the existence of God? Well, maybe you lack of some tools like microscope that able to find God somewhere.

Experimental science cannot prove the existence of God anymore than it can analyse faith, hope or charity!

You mention the atom, molecule, mitochondria or bacteria, and I'm thinking of the new found complexites of the cell that the discoveries of natural scientists lead more and more to the realization of the existence of a Creative Power. Scientific research and development keep continually adding to the number of mysteries in creation that can only be accounted for by belief in an Intelligent Designer, whom we call God.

But I have some issues here : 1. The problem of whatever God is exist or not is... not the existence of the God himself, but more about the concept of the religion that tell us about the existence of God. 2. Religion is a knowledge that founded, expanded, implemented, and learned by the people of the past. If we consider Religion as science, it is a science that invented by ancient wise men. 3. Religion tell us about the existence of the God from the view points of ancient wise men.

I've said this before...but it fits here ... so I'll repeat.

In true religion, it is Divine Authority, taking God at His word...oral (Sacred tradition) and written (Sacred Scripture).

True Religion begins with Divine Faith what will not in fact, deceive; whereas Science begins with human faith that is fallible.

Science like religion begins with mysteries, truths that are not and never will be fully understood. Electricity is an example. A teacher said, "Science is knowing how God works in the natural order; Faith is knowing how God works in the supernatural order."

515

lulapilgrim

on Dec 12, 2011

... Yes, I quoted you referring to the subject of your quote ..."the religious spammer". ... It still looks like a forum bug or a confusing misrepresentation. Your quote text in reply 468 is from one of Jafo's replies, but you attribute it to one of my replies. I didn't type those words, and you didn't quote the words that I did type. If the forum didn't do it with a code fart, why did you choose to put Jafo's words under my name?

I see what you're saying ...Perhaps it's an innocent error?

Here it is from the beginning...

Forefather1 post:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...

And Ryat challenged that saying:

Now prove it.

I responded to Ryat's challenge saying:

Now prove it. This is God Who is omniscient, Truth Itself and free from all error, giving us an account of His Creation. Almighty God is both the principal Author of the Bible and Creator of the Heavens and the earth. God Himself proves it for He is a reliable eye-witness to Creation.

And at this point Jafo came in saying:

on Dec 10, 2011 When necro-threads are revived I immediately expect spam/spammer...... Behold the religious spammer as he WILL be smote from this place.

Then you posted in 466..

466

GW Swicord

on Dec 10, 2011

Eh, one entity's death is another's long nap and/or metamorphosis.

-------------------

then in my reply 468, it appears that when I quoted Jafo, Jafo's quote came up as one of yours...

468

lulapilgrim

on Dec 10, 2011

GW Swicord

reply 466

Behold the religious spammer as he WILL be smote from this place.

I don't get it.

Old blog discussions are revived from time to time. What's wrong with that? Then and now, Science and God are always interesting to discuss.

--------------------------------------------------

516

Jafo

on Dec 12, 2011

GW Swicord

reply 513

If the forum didn't do it with a code fart, why did you choose to put Jafo's words under my name?

It must have been God's will....she moves in mysterious ways....

More than likely the real-world answer was a cache issue....the servers were out of synch long enough for two different thread comments to have the same #number ...

517

lulapilgrim

on Dec 12, 2011

Sinperium posts: 484

Well I met a few religious people and though they all were a little nuts, ergo, "All religion is nuts"...Sez you. I can just as easily turn your quote around and say, "Skepticism is the manifestation of fear of the limitations of our knowledge and a method of escape from unpleasant truths." In many specific cases, this is actually true.

Good point.

-----------------

Sir_Linque posts: 485

I just don't like organized religion to own these experiences, .... If I've understood you right, you just support general spirituality, and oppose organized religion. At least I hope you do, as if I were to believe in the supernatural, I would reject organized religions as abusers of this. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I know this was addressed to someone specific, however, you seem to be open to discussion.

I'm curious...what is general spirituality?

Well, there are all kinds of organized religions out there causing lots of confusion and therefore it's understandable that there is dislike and opposition. This is Satan's way.

So let's get into the thick of it.

Let's start by admitting there is out there..one true religion, irrelgion, and many false religions.

Religion in the widest sense is the union or bond of man with God Who made us. Religion is an act by which we render to God both privately as individuals and publicly as social beings, the honor, gratitude, worship, and obedience due to Him in the way prescribed by Him. Objectively, religion consists in doctrines and precepts by which man seeks to bring about this bond.

Religion is true when its doctrines and precepts are either dictated by right reason, or revealed by God; if the former, it's called natural religion.

A person may be conscious of the existence of God, feel his responsibility to God, be just and loving to his neighbor, without belonging to an organized religion. That is natural religion. It is obeying the things the conscience of man tells him are right and wrong.

The latter, revealed by God is supernatural religion of which there is but one .. it began as biblical Judaism become fulfilled by Christ and full blossomed into Christianity, specifically, Catholicism.

Religion is false if when claiming to be revealed, it is unable to show a divine guarantee, or when its dogmas or doctrines sin against right reason and conscience.

True Religion is a strict obligation incumbent on every person and it is the means by which man works out his final destiny.

----------------------------------

518

lulapilgrim

on Dec 12, 2011

The thing is, these supernatural events you describe are far, far outnumbered by experiences that are explainable away. I admit that the actual difficulty is choosing what events to include in our sample, but it's a tough task for supporters of the supernatural to convince me that their supernatural experiences that are not currently explainable are in any way significant. They're just outliers. We always have outliers. But I understand that it's hard to sway those that are convinced by their experiences.

As far as a supernatural event, I'd like to share this story that comes from a Marine in 1950. True story.

The Story of Michael … Background

What follows is a copy of a letter that was written by a young Marine to his mother while he was hospitalized after being wounded on a Korean battlefield in 1950. It came into the hands of a Navy Chaplain, who read the letter before 5,000 Marines at a San Diego Naval Base in 1951. The Navy Chaplain had talked to the boy, to the boy's mother and to the Sergeant in charge of the patrol. This Navy Chaplain, Father Walter Muldy, would always assure anyone who asked that this is a true story. This letter had been read once a year in the 1960s at a Midwestern radio station at Christmas time. Since thousands of U.S. troops now head to the Persian Gulf for the planned war against Iraq, we publish this remarkable story once more, in the hope that many servicemen and their families will invoke the intercession and protection of Saint Michael. We present the letter and let it stand on its own merits. (J. V.)

" Dear Mom,    I wouldn't dare write this letter to anyone but you because no one else would believe it. Maybe even you will find it hard but I have got to tell somebody.    First off, I am in a hospital. Now don't worry, ya hear me, don't worry. I was wounded but I am okay you understand. Okay. The doctor says that I will be up and around in a month.   But that is not what I want to tell you.    Remember when I joined the Marines last year; remember when I left, how you told me to say a prayer to St. Michael every day. You really didn't have to tell me that. Ever since I can remember you always told me to pray to St. Michael the Archangel. You even named me after him. Well I always have.    When I got to Korea, I prayed-----even harder. Remember the prayer that you taught me?      "Michael, Michael of the morning fresh corps of Heaven adorning," you know the rest of it. Well I said it every day. Sometimes when I was marching or sometimes resting. But always before I went to sleep. I even got some of the other fellas to say it.
Well, one day I was with an advance detail way up over the front lines. We were scouting for the Commies. I was plodding along in the bitter cold, my breath was like cigar smoke.     I thought I knew every guy in the patrol, when along side of me comes another Marine I never met before. He was bigger than any other Marine I'd ever seen. He must have been 6'4" and built in proportion. It gave me a feeling of security to have such a body near.    Anyway, there we were trudging along. The rest of the patrol spread out. Just to start a conversation I said, "Cold ain't it." And then I laughed. Here I was with a good chance of getting killed any minute and I am talking about the weather.     My companion seemed to understand. I heard him laugh softly; I looked at him, "I have ever seen you before, I thought I knew every man in the outfit."      "I just joined at the last minute", he replied. "The name is Michael."    "Is that so," I said surprised. "That is my name too."    "I know," he said and then went on, "Michael, Michael of the morning . . ."     I was too amazed to say anything for a minute. How did he know my name, and a prayer that you had taught me? Then I smiled to myself, every guy in the outfit knew about me. Hadn't I taught the prayer to anybody who would listen? Why now and then, they even referred to me as St. Michael.
Neither of us spoke for a time and then he broke the silence. "We are going to have some trouble up ahead."     He must have been in fine physical shape for he was breathing so lightly I couldn't see his breath. Mine poured out in great clouds. There was no smile on his face now. Trouble ahead, I thought to myself, well with the Commies all around us, that is no great revelation.     Snow began to fall in great thick globs. In a brief moment the whole countryside was blotted out. And I was marching in a white fog of wet sticky particles. My companion disappeared.     "Michael," I shouted in sudden alarm.    I felt his hand on my arm, his voice was rich and strong, "This will stop shortly."    His prophecy proved to be correct. In a few minutes the snow stopped as abruptly as it had begun. The sun was a hard shining disc. I looked back for the rest of the patrol, there was no one in sight. We lost them in that heavy fall of snow. I looked ahead as we came over a little rise.      Mom, my heart stopped. There were seven of them. Seven Commies in their padded pants and jackets and their funny hats. Only there wasn't anything funny about them now. Seven rifles were aimed at us.     "Down Michael," I screamed and hit the frozen earth.
I heard those rifles fire almost as one. I heard the bullets. There was Michael still standing.    Mom, those guys couldn't have missed, not at that range. I expected to see him literally blown to bits.    But there he stood, making no effort to fire himself. He was paralyzed with fear. It happens sometimes, Mom, even to the bravest. He was like a bird fascinated by a snake.     At least, that was what I thought then. I jumped up to pull him down and that was when I got mine. I felt a sudden flame in my chest. I often wondered what it felt like to be hit, now I know.

I remember feeling strong arms about me, arms that laid me ever so gently on a pillow of snow. I opened my eyes, for one last look. I was dying. Maybe I was even dead, I remember thinking, well this is not so bad. Maybe I was looking into the sun. Maybe I was in shock. But it seemed I saw Michael standing erect again only this time his face was shining with a terrible splendor. As I say, maybe it was the sun in my eyes, but he seemed to change as I watched him. He grew bigger; his arms stretched out wide, maybe it was the snow falling again, but there was a brightness around him like the wings of an Angel. In his hand was a sword. A sword that flashed with a million lights.     Well, that is the last thing I remember until the rest of the fellas came up and found me. I do not know how much time had passed. Now and then I had but a moment's rest from the pain and fever. I remember telling them of the enemy just ahead.

"Where is Michael", I asked. I saw them look at one another. "Where's who?" asked one. Michael, Michael that big Marine I was walking with just before the big snow squall hit us". "kid" said the sergeant, "you weren't walking with anyone. I had my eyes on you the whole time. You were getting too far out. I was just going to call you when you diseappeared in the snow." He looked at me curiously. "How did you do it, kid?" "How'd I do what?" I asked half angry despite my wound. "This Marine named Michael and I were just..."

"Son," said the sergeant kindly. "I picked this outfit myself and there just ain't another Michael in it. You are the only MIke in it." He paused for a minute, "Just how did you do it kid? We heard shots. There hasn't been a shot fired from your rifle. And there isn't a bit of lead in them seven bodies over the hill there."

I didn't say anything, what could I say? I could only look open-mouthed with amazement. It was then the sergeant spoke again, "Kid," he said gently, "every one of those seven Commies was killed by a sword stroke."

That is all I can tell you, Mom. As I say, it may have been the sun in my eyes, it may have been the cold or the pain, but that is what happened. Love, Michael."

519

RiddleKing

on Dec 12, 2011

your a lost soul

520

Sinperium

on Dec 12, 2011

Read about the real life story of Sgt. York (WWI) sometime Riddle.

521

Satrhan

on Dec 12, 2011

lulapilgrim

reply 514

Experimental science cannot prove the existence of God anymore than it can analyse faith, hope or charity!

Except for the fact that it can explain those things just fine.

You mention the atom, molecule, mitochondria or bacteria, and I'm thinking of the new found complexities of the cell that the discoveries of natural scientists lead more and more to the realization of the existence of a Creative Power. Scientific research and development keep continually adding to the number of mysteries in creation that can only be accounted for by belief in an Intelligent Designer, whom we call God. [/quote]

First of all, you are contradicting yourself here. At first you say that experimental science cannot prove the existence of god, and then you say that the discovered complexity of things we find is proof there is a god. And second, to say that scientist are finding things that point toward the existence of a creator is just not true. There are no (more than usual, everyone can make a mistake) scientists looking through a proverbial microscope and declaring "Well, that's it, there must be a god". Maybe they are finding things they can't explain yet, but that is often the case in science. You are contributing these as of yet unexplained phenomena to god, but that's just the age old 'I can't explain this, it must be the work of god".

Again, science deals with observed facts, the things that exist in Creation, and not their ultimate Origin. There are two exceptions, the science of theology, which treats of God, His Nature, Attributes and laws, and philosophy which deals with the general laws that furnish the rational explanation of things as well as their ultimate causes. [/quote]

Calling theology a science is a giant misnomer. Just look at the first line in the wikipedia page about science: "Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe." Note the underlined 'testable explanations' something which you yourself have said is not possible. At best it is a historical study, with some philosophical influences. It mainly comes down to a lot of 'he said...', 'she said...', 'yes but he meant...', etc... It is just the study of how someone in the past explained the parts of the world he didn't understand, building on how someone before him explained the more numerous parts of the world he didn't understand, in turn building on how someone before him who.. et cetera, all the way back to the dawn of humanity.

In true religion, it is Divine Authority, taking God at His word...oral (Sacred tradition) and written (Sacred Scripture).

So believing in something someone wrote down thousands of years ago, having no proof for it, claiming it as the word of god, and expecting it to somehow still apply to the world today.

True Religion begins with Divine Faith what will not in fact, deceive; whereas Science begins with human faith that is fallible.

And that fallibility is science's strength. When a religious prediction comes true, it is proof it's right. When it doesn't come true, it's still right, but explains the problem away by saying 'god's ways are mysterious' or 'it wasn't meant to be'. When science makes a prediction and it doesn't come true, it tries to find out why and adjusts it's theories accordingly if necessary. This is the only way to find any sort of truth.

Science like religion begins with mysteries, truths that are not and never will be fully understood. Electricity is an example.

Are you claiming we don't understand how electricity works?

522

Satrhan

on Dec 12, 2011

Bloody quotes borked up the forum again...

523

Fuzzy Logic

on Dec 12, 2011

It happens when people copy and paste from Word...

524

Satrhan

on Dec 12, 2011

Wasn't me then..

525

Fuzzy Logic

on Dec 12, 2011

Needs a Mod to fix it.

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