Actually, I did, but then you refuse to see it as a religion. *shrug*

Atheism isn't a religion. It's merely ONE belief.

There are several atheist religions, including Confucianism and some forms of Buddhism. To say that atheism is a "religion" is tantamount to saying that all atheist religions are the same. They are not. They are as different as Judaism and Islam, which are both theistic (and also monotheistic) religions.

I guess a lot of it depends on what you consider to be a religion.  If you go with Leauki's definition, and consider religion to be just the rituals associated with the religion, then there's no conflict.  I don't think his definition really captures what the word means though.  Religion, to me, entails a belief in something supernatural and unprovable, almost always with some sort of unseen authority figure dictating moral absolutes.  That's a pretty important part of religion to me - it forms a moral framework, and the moral framework is enforced by the idea that there is a god of some sort who created the morals and thus those particular morals are "true".

For most religions to work, though, you need to believe that the authority figure, or God, is actually "real" somehow.  That's where science starts to get in the way.  In my experience, religious people fall into two broad categories: science-denial types, who willfully believe things that clearly contradict science because they're supposed to: creationism vs evolution, creationism vs astronomy, faith vs logic, etc.  Then there are the science-reconciler types, who are the ones driving new redefinitions of the word "God" and their particular religions to adapt to science's inexorable march disproving the supernatural.  This is where we get the strange philosophical and linguistic riddles that modern theologists use to explain God: that he's nothing and everything, that he is everywhere yet nowhere, that he transcends logic, and other things that sound very mystical but which tend to not really make any sense if you try to apply them to real-world concepts.

As has been pointed out a few times in this thread, too, it's impossible to disprove the existence of something that is defined to appear nonexistent in all ways.  If I claimed there was an invisible pink unicorn that was impossible to detect in any way standing next to you, there is no way to "disprove" it.  What most philosophical atheists would say, however, is that "an invisible pink unicorn which is impossible to detect in any way" is the same thing as "nothing".  What's the concrete difference between "nothing" and "something that is exactly like nothing"?  There isn't really one.  For the word God to have meaning to me, it would need to have some sort of actual definition; some sort of observable property that makes it different than "nothing".  There's a branch of philosophy called ignosticism (with an i, not an a) that deals with this problem of the definition of the word "God", and how most debate is actually pointless because no one debating can even explain what the word means.

Sure there are things we must learn, but it dosnt mean that we must get it all from our parents right?
you said you bealieve in god because your parents told you...
well take a trip to india and ask all the millions of people in there what they think about your god
so now its your parents Vs millions of people who say that your parents are wrong
who will you beliave? your parents? just because they are your parents?
how about to make your OWN reserch and to put your faith on your findings

No, but it shows that there is no reason not to believe them just for the sake of not believing them.

Yes,

I live with two Hindus. Have you ever talked to Hindus?

Hinduism is a complicated system and it is not entirely clear whether the Hindu gods are really several gods or just dozens of aspects of the same god. Either way, it doesn't matter.

The Jewish Bible speaks of other gods, it just prohibits Jews to pray to them or pay any attention to them. They don't matter. For all I care a Hindu can believe whatever he wants, as long as he doesn't insist that I cannot believe what I want.

What exactly is your point? Hinduism does not say that Judaism is wrong, Hinduism just says that Judaism is not Indian. For all Hinduism cares Judaism might well be what the creator god has revealed to the Jewish people while revealing something else to the Indian people. Who says everybody must have the same religion?

As I mentioned before I also believe that Zoroastrianism is a true religion. I don't really have an opinion on Hinduism, but I can tell you that what G-d told or didn't tell the Indians has no impact on my beliefs at all.

Blog entry about my trip to northern Iraq and a visit to a local museum to see Zoroastrian and Islamic art:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Home/Blog/Entries/2008/11/2_Sulaimaniya_-_Part_1.html

Blog entry about the relevant words in Arabic and Aramaic/Hebrew regarding Zoroastrianism's angels:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Not_A_Linguist_Blog/Entries/2008/11/2_Angels_and_Kings.html

My blog about Judaism and Israel:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Home/Shabbos_Blog/Shabbos_Blog.html

Blog entry of mine about the power of Christian prayer:

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/337894/The_Power_of_Prayer

Word-for-word translation and analysis of the key statements in the Biblical story of Noah:

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/320746/Noahs_Flood_the_Beginning_and_the_End

A little essay on Abraham and the foundation of Judaism and Islam:

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/319137/Abraham

I assure you that I don't blog about everything I research. I am currently busy with understanding a book about the Aramaic loan words used in the Quran (it takes me a long time to read the book because of too many examples in Arabic and Aramaic that I find difficult to translate) and a book about ancient Akkadian grammar (which will hopefully do a lot for my understanding of the Akkadian substrate in Biblical Hebrew, like "anoki" instead of "ani" for "I").

And to all this you can add my discussions with my flat mates about Hinduism, a religion and culture I find most fascinating and am trying to learn more about. But in contrast to what you were implying learning about other religions does not have a negative impact on my beliefs, it only adds to my understanding of the world my G-d created.

I stand corrected. My appologies I used the wrong word. What I grew up hearing to be "Atheism" is actually Humanism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

You learn something new everyday.

Very true.

Meh i think religion is ignorance, no offance!
Its just wierd to me that 2000 years ago people said that our sun and moon are gods
and if you said its not true then they added "but you cant proove that it is not true!"
and then they burned you for not accepting the sun and the mood as the 2 true gods

todays religion is no much differance..

There is no God, no Super Natural Being, No magical Unicorns, no Lepocrons at the end of the Rainbow, and Yes, No Santa Clause ( sorry to be one to beak the bad news about Santa to you). It is all MAN MADE, Every God has been Man Made, Every Religious Belief and Rituals that go with them is Man made, all of it. Ask yourself what is the point of Science or Religion.

To Understand and Explain our Surroundings. Nothing More.....

Science and Religion say the same thing btw.......We came from Nothing. One says there was a Ceator who did it and the other says there was a Big Bang

Anyway back on topic.........All Man Made. Early man wan not stupid, we could see patterns to Natue, we could see cause and effect and wondered why. Early man learned that sunlight helped the plants grow, melt the snow, made the weather warmer. Then Ealy man asked the question Who, What, When, Where, and How. in relation to the sun. So Then what did early man do? Created Rituals, Set up shrines, Praised, Woshipped the sun Because it would be bad if there was no Sun anymore. And through their Rituals and Beliefs they could now understand and explain what that big yellow circle in the sky was. (I'm not explaining that I Really want to so some might not get it, but Basicly learn the Histoy of relgion, the how and why of it)

Then at one point Humans stopped being Nomadic and started to make settlements. What is needed now? Rules and stucture. Need to keep the peace of the community. Enter Religion, Don't disobey the Sun's god Rules or you will bring about his Wrath. Around this time Morals, Values and Ethics stared to come into play with Humanity so In my opiniion Religin was needed fo the advancement of Humanity but not anymore.

Fo the first time in Known Human History the Common man has the Worlds knowledge at thier fingers(internet). Up until now only the select few had this knowledge. It is Called the Dark Ages for a Reason. Common Man couldn't even Read. One day there will be no Religion. Might be 5000 years from now but it will happen. It's not a accident that the more Intellegent a person is the less Likely they Believe in the Super Natural and less Intellegent a person is the more likely they are to believe in the Super Natural. Things are Changing and at One point in the Futue there will be no religon, Humanity will no longer need it to explain the Unknown.

Anyway this typing thing sucks, I would love have this Converstation in person for it is these types of Topics (Religon and Society/Government) that truley Spark my Mind. I could go on forever about this topic and in much needed detail but alas I won't, seeing how I feel I'm not quite geting out what I want. So just "Believe" me when I say, I just know I'm right. You will not agree with me now, but when you die you will see I was right and you were wrong.

even if i am not an/the all powerful creator, depending on what you believe, i still want to do this

and the fact that this thread is still creeping is crazy, you must not have read my short little post a billion pages ago

From what I know of the two, I would say that both religions do say that the other is wrong.  Some people within that religion will try to incorporate the other's gods into their own (as you seem to imply that the Hindu's creator god is just your god "in disguise", some Hindu people would do the same in reverse for your god).  However Judeo-christian religions are fairly clear in that their particular creator god favors their people more than others.  The Bible does mention other gods, but the god of the jews is also supposed to be the same god that created the world, as well as more powerful than all the Egyptian and similar gods.  New Testament takes this further and outright says that the other gods are all fakes and that the Christian god is the only god.

The Hindu religion, on the other hand, is pretty confusing as you say .  They have several versions of the creation story, but one thing that is certain is that none of those stories end up with Vishnu or Brahma or anyone creating the tribes of Israel or becoming the patron god of the Jews.  So I don't think one could easily claim that Vishnu is the same thing as Yahweh.  Both gods are fairly particular about showing favoritism towards their own culture of worshippers.

Even if one were to say that both gods exist, you couldn't say that both gods created the world.  Only one can have done that, if the associated stories are to be taken as true.  And I don't think either can claim that the other's creator god is the same person as theirs without running into a bunch of contradictions.

Quote:  'So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is?'

I think that the answer to that question is simple.  The limits of our comprehension will stop us ever finding the true and complete answer.

For argument's sake assume that there is a god.  Now, try to imagine the true size of the cosmos and the infinite possibilities and combinations of possibilities held within.  How could we ever hope to be able to comprehend the intentions of a being that created something of infinite size and complexity?  Put simply, we just couldn't, nor will we ever be able to.  The collective thoughts of a million great races from a million different star systems wouldn't even come close, let alone one miniscule race on a tiny planet/system/galaxy in the arse end of the milky way.

I do believe that we will make some progress towards an answer or theory, but simply can't see how we'll ever be able to comprehend the 'plan' as it were. 

I don't know.  If life and death are just different states of matter and being, maybe when we die......ahhhh......I don't know! lol  That's my point.

Lets start with basic principles.

Science is based on Facts.  Facts are true until proven false, then they are forever false.  This tells us that things which have been considered facts for a long time are likely to be true.  Facts which have been 'proven' recently are less robust.

Faith is based on truth.  Truth has NOTHING to do with facts.  Everyone has their own truth.  In order for a religion to survive over time in needs to do two things.  One, it must have a God which answers your prayers, explains the nature of the universe, gives you a sense of belonging, and MOST IMPORTANT promise everlasting glory/happiness if you live your life faithfully.  Two, it must convince you that everyone else is wrong.

You can see the how these are not compatable.  In science, NOTHING is taken as gospel.  In fact, the longer a fact has been 'true' the more glory you can achieve disproving it.  In religion, EVERYTHING is taken as gospel, and you are NOT welcome to disprove anything.

OK, now lets get to GOD.  Let us assume God exists.  The first thing to be done is to define him/her/it.  Here is the problem.  God, by EVERY relieon's definition is all knowing and all powerful....  How does this work with more than 100 significant religions in the world??  Did he tell the 'truth' to one and 'lie' to all the others?  Are there other "god-like' beings out there pretending to be God?  One possibility is that God is too big to understand and that all religions reached him but with limited understanding got only a piece of the truth....There is a long road to follow here, too long for this discussion.

Lets use Logic to make things worse.  God is perfect by definition.  He knows all that will happen and has all power.  Therefore, when he made the world, he did this perfectly without flaw or lack of a plan.  What is a miracle?  By definition, it is a break in the natural order created by God....How can this be?  If he is perfect, and his creation is perfect, than he was able to forsee all possibilities and would NEVER need to break any of his own laws...therefore there have been no miracles, only exaggerations.  This can be indirectly proven be the fact that there have been no real miracles since the camcorder was invented.  I don't think the letters GOD burned into sausage patties count here.

So, using science, we can say even if there is a God, he does not interfere...His world has been created perfectly and that is that.  Anything else would make him imperfect, or at best a royal bas..... (you get the point).

Religion is about power and control of the masses.  It was used to explain the unexplainable, and give meaning to life on this planet.  As the worshipers became more sophisticated, so did the explainations.  Originally things started with shamanistic beliefs.  Many spirits in all aspects of life.  It evolved to polythesism (Greek and Egyptian being the most known examples of this).  Then it evolved into monothesism (Pick one of many).  Then next step is obvious, though frightening.

We all have a very limited time alive.  It would be wonderful if there was something more afterwards.  Logical thought tends to deny it unfortunately.  There is no way a god would create a religion for a small group of people and damn all the others.  If God created everyone and gave everyone free will this makes no sense at all.  I suppose there are hundreds of aspects of God and all are right and true, but then what is the answer to how to get in??  You can find religeons with completely opposed views on 'proper' behavior to succeed.  This again makes no sense.  If you use the word 'fair' to define your God, there is no way any one of these Gods would apply.  This is a big problem when looking at the whole human condition.  The only answer which makes sense is God is a fabrication by man to explain what cannot yet be explained and to control others.  Sad but true.

I agree with KFC who said on another thread, " The only way I believe in the Big Bang is.........God said it, and Bang it happened!"

What happened when God spoke "in the beginning"? Out of nothing, God created light on the first Day.  This is God's absolute truth in Genesis and He was the only reliable eye-witness and so how could I possibly favor modern humans who were not? Since Almighty God is truly omnipotent, He can create anything anyway that so pleases Him. And He told us that He desired to create the universe in 6 days (of 24 hours each?) topped with the highest achievement of Creation...human beings. Day, months and years can all be derived from consideration of astronomy, but never weeks....the concept of a 7-day week comes only from Genesis.

It seems to me the common sense question is why attempt accomodations that of nothing = the Big Bang and eons of time to allow it to develop into the universe when this is apparently in such stark contrast to Genesis?

PHAEYDME POSTS # 300

makeshiftwings said:   First, there was nothing ...Just nothing. Then, the big bang happened, and ...the Big Bang is scientific fact.

Well, with all due respect, then please enlighten me as to how nothing can produce something. I know the BB theory, but just can't get pass scientists saying "it's scientific FACT" that nothing blew up and produced all the matter in the universe. No way, Jose!   

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makeshiftwings posts: 299

 No one in physics today denies the Big Bang, so saying it violates physical law is a little ridiculous. Whose physical laws are you referring to?

I don't know...you tell me as you are the one who states that the BB is scientific fact.

What physical law says that nothing can produce something?

What physical law says that nothingness can pack together and explode?

What physical law allows nothing to expand?

What physical law states that nothing can produce heat?

MAKESHIFTWINGS POSTS #363

I tend to agree, except I think God is provable.

In short, since mankind is endowed with a material body and a spiritual, immortal soul, religion really matters.

Religion comes from the Latin word, religare---meaning to bind. Religion in the widest sense is the union or relationship between God and man. It is a real and existential, personal and inter-subjective, conscious and free, dynamic, necessary and perfecting relationship of the human being.

Religion is true when its doctrines and precepts are either dictated by right reason or revealed by God. If the former, it's called natural religion, if the latter, it's called supernatural religion. Supernatural religion implies the recognition of a Divine Personality, behind and producing the forces of the world, the Lord and Ruler of the world, God. That God has control over our lives and desinies...that we can bring oursleves into a friendly communion with God..that we must perform certains acts of faith, hope and love  as God is the source of our perfection and happiness on this earth and eternally in the next.

St.Thomas Aquinas said religion is the virtue which prompts man to render to god the worship and reverence that is His by right. Objectively, relligion is the voluntary acknowledgment of man's dependence on God through acts of homage.

First natural religion, it's simply the religion a person would be obliged to practice even if he never received a revelation from God. Man could know by reason alone that God exists and be obedient to the natural moral law as manifested by conscience. even where natural religion is concerned the lack of abillity and of time for study amongst the masses and the differences of opinion and errors even of philosophers, would argue the need of some help by Revelation. Today, this natural religion is not sufficient in the present condition of the human race. God has given mankind a supernatural destiny higher than any merely natural destiny, a destiny dependent entirely upon the good pleasure of Almighty God, our Maker, and this requires the Revelation of a knowledge higher than that which can be attained by the merely natural reason.

We simply have to accept the fact that God has revealed supernatural truths beyond natural religion. God has revealed very defiinite doctrines and moral obligations. It is for us to freely accept and fulfill them if we are to have any idea of pleasing God and saving our soul.

We attain truth, that is authentic religion by our intelligence, not our feelings. Test religion with evidence but know that you cannot prove all things that God has revealed as some are true mysteries (like the Blessed Trinity but that's another blog discussion). Facts prove that reason is limited in capacity and that many truths, even natural truths baffle it. "I don't understand therefore I don't believe it" is an argument which no reasonable person would utter, right? "I can disprove it, therefore I do not believe it" is lawful argument.  

The reason for practicing religion must simply be the will to be just. Practicing religion fills the fundamental need and duty to God is more important than duty to man, God's creature, but duty to God implies duty to man.

More often than not, the reasons alleged with irreligious and unbelievers for not wanting to practice religion is becasue true religion would come into conflict with their passions, and vices. If religion is true, they are going to have to change their ways and many are unwilling to do that. Today, we prefer duty to ourselves, our family, and friends above duty to God...He is ignored even among those who claim to be religious.

Anyway, religion really matters...it should be the most important thing in life, and actually in the life of every nation as well..but again, that's subject for another blog!