By this same logic we can assume that God was created by a higher being." It exists, therefore it had to be made" so either God was made, or God doesn't exist... Or this logical arguement simply is incorrect, in which case we can simply assume that the Universe exists because it exists and there is no intelligent design behind it all.

Actually, "watch maker" implies "watch".

It's the "watch maker" who is defined by what he does (he makes "watches"), but the "watch" is not defined by who made it but how it behaves (it tells time).

If there were no watch maker, a watch would still be a watch by virtue of its telling the time.

But if there were no watch, there could not be a watch maker.

A god maker?

What was there first, the god or the god maker?

Are we G-d's creation or is He ours? What if those are really the same things?

Actually, you would need a god-maker-maker, and then you would need a god-maker-maker-maker, and (s)he would have to have a god-maker-maker-maker-maker and so on, until you eventually get the "infinity over infinity" problem which could be used to reason that there is never really an end to anything, just more and more layers. In essence, a universe containing God would have to be infinite and self-organising, without an ultimate creator at all. So, if you look at it that way, it is completely impossible to have anything approachng a conventional god, as there is always  a next-higher being.

The idea that there is a contradiction between science and religion is mostly a 20th century invention (along with intelligent design, ultra-Darwinism etc).  Darwin was supported by most elements of the church when he published the Origin of Species.

I don't believe in the title of the thread, mainly due to the fact that science is by definition a rational pursuit of knowledge about the world, while religion could be considered non-rational (not irrational).  You cannot logically deduce the existence or non-existence of God, hence religion and science are seperate.

Google "god of the gaps," it's essentially what you seem to be getting at.

sorry,I didnt read previous posts

Universe is God

Life is God

Nature is God

it is all,it is everywhere,it is connected

or if we try to explain god in a less brain washing way -it is  some kind of spirit that connects everything

here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

By this same logic we can assume that God was created by a higher being." It exists, therefore it had to be made" so either God was made, or God doesn't exist... Or this logical arguement simply is incorrect, in which case we can simply assume that the Universe exists because it exists and there is no intelligent design behind it all.
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By that argument everything is nonsense.  The universe simply exist because it exist is nonsesense.  And no inteligent design is nonsense; it can't just appear out of nowhere.  Therefore we are back to where we started.  Maybe its just finite beings trying to understand infinite universe.  If you can accept that the universe always existed why can there not be a creator who always existed?  I would think having a creator who always existed who created this universe makes more sense than just have a universe that simply exist?  And by having no proof, the lines between science, science-fiction and religion seem to merge.  At any rate its pointless.

We can't prove and we can't disapprove, but we somehow know.....

Happy Easter anyway.

Because, if the universe always existed, it's unnecessary for there to be a creator and because there's no evidence that a creator exists.

Science isn't arguing that the universe has always existed, for one.

Exactly! I was simply making a point that you can't logically argue religion. If one person believes that God just is, then why can't another believe the same for the universe? One person can believe that the universe is full of random coincidences and another can believe in intelligent design, but neither can be proven, nor disproven.

Ultimately the answer to either doesn't really matter. It doesn't change the way people should behave.

If I find a watch I know it exists, but I can only fathom the existence of its creator / owner. In the end, I've found a watch and some questions. I know the universe exists because it is a tangible thing, but there is no way to determine if there is a creator.

Note: Basically I'm just pointing out a logical paradox.

More Stuff: I'm a programmer, so I'm a little inclined to see the universe from a similiar perspective. I see it like this: If I were God, the universe would be designed in a way that it is self-sufficient and does not require my intervention, except to fix the occassional bug. Ultimately the universe would be a set of algorithms and logic that define how things work and provide limitations for various things. People, are simply actors within the program, but they follow no strict lines. They are self-sufficent and capable of reprogramming / modifying their own A.I. Thus, intelligent design exists, people maintain their freedoms, and science has its logical basis.

Woops... forums bugged on me and my post wasn't showing... so I tried a refresh and then a repost.

And most scientist believe that there is a date that the universe was created.  So so much for that theory.

I like that view; very logical.

I am majoring in the physics field (electromagnetics). But what I find interesting

is that many scientists from all the feilds of science still believe in god.

This may sound strange to some people, but even in the science field, it's

impossible to describe certain aspects of the universe. Just watch a video

on how a cell works, its so amazingly complex, yet we have several trillion of

these wonderous machines that make up our bodies. But how did these cells

get made? When did several of these different cells decide to work together, and

make a macroscopic organism? It's impossible to explain.

We don't even know when, or how the universe was made. I know pople keep

referring to the "big bang", but we still have no idea what caused it, or how energy

was created (remember, it cant be created or destroyed!), etc.

In my opinion, god made the universe, gave it certain rules that it had to follow, and

then left. We are just discovering the rules that god used to create the universe.

(if you look into string theory, there is a chance that  many other universes exist, all following

there own cosmic rules).

The fact is, you have to be careful with both faith and science. Because, both are two different

ways of trying to understand a universe, a universe we know nothing about. It is easy to become

ignorent on both sides of the isle. The fact is, there is a reason humans exist having both faith, and

science. It's simply because we can reap the benefits with both, rather then just one or the other

(think about this).